Thanks for the response, as you aware trinity is not found in the bible either but of course it is inferred. I will not comment anymore than that in respect of Mr Lloyds wishes which I didn’t read before my last post, so I apologise for that. If you wish to continue our discussion by all means E-mail me. Greatest of respect to you, and I do believe we are both on the winning side.

Many blessings…

Mark.

Markrobinsw@aol.com

Certainly, I shall “just answer you straight.”

Why any other way, my comrade in arms, my brother in victory; His, that is!

Reagarding your other questions:

Please be convinced that I hold to “the grace gifts”
of scripture, imparted by the Holy Ghost, no strawmen,
e.g., “Calvin” (great Reformer, though he was!).

Moreover, I am convicted by Christ who said on the Mount of Olives that His prophecy would be fulfilled in “this generation” (Matt. 24:34), in the first century, A.D. — One of His covenant promises rejected by the dispensationalists. The latter still warn of “the Great Tribulation” and expect to be snatched away, just in time! What a long generation!

Why would I doubt Him? Even the skeptics can read the history (e.g., Josephus) and affirming scriptures.

Christ “has come” (as He did in 68-70 A.D.) many times
in judgment, throughout history, e.g., Eden (Gen. 3), the Flood (Matt. 24:37), etc., but not bodily.

Your term, “second coming,” I can’t find in my Bible,
although we are assured of His bodily return at the end of history, at the marriage supper, on judgment day.

Is that what you mean: His second and final advent, the second resurrection, when all of His enemies have been defeated (1 Cor. 15: 20-28)?

If so we agree, my brother. What a glorous day that shall be!

Meanwhile, let’s get on with the mission of restoration: salt and light, mustard seed, leaven,
prayer, worship, Table, Great Commission, building the church, healthy families, law-abiding communities, healing, encouragement, and all of His other duties and opportunities — illuminating His Kingdom — by His Spirit!

What a joy to partake of that vision with you, Mark
(and Elwyn) as winners, not as escapists on the heavenly sky hook, leaving behind the lost before they have heard the gospel.

Thank you, Father, for saving Mark and me from your wrath, and for training us to run the race of faith
(Heb. 10 - 13) until the restoration of all things (Acts 3:21).

To Christ alone be the glory,

Frank

Can you just answer me straight, I’m making an assumption and I don’t want to do that, do you therefore hold to the grace gifts as laid down by Calvin, do you believe that all of the prophecies of the Olivet discourse to be history, and therefore the second coming of Christ is past, is that correct, and is that what Covenant Theology as a whole believes?

Sincerely

Mark.

You can be sure that I wont “be neutral.”

Your excitement is intriguing: “Wow!” you exclaimed.
“That leaves you with a real problem!”

The only problem I have is bouncing from one thread
to the other with the same topic. See my post #11
on “God’s World” for a few comments relevant to your
critique above.

Frank

Why you would conclude that I “despise” you for our clear disagreement is indeed a mystery!

I simply hold your doctrines in disfavor because I believe they are an impediment to restoration and your faith. Moreover, I see little room for the joy of the Lord in your outlook for the church’s defeat.

Is that your Good News for the pagans among us?

Why, pray tell, as a lost soul, would I be attracted to the impending gloom and doom you project, e.g.,
” … rapture, Antichrist, Tribulation, Aramageddon
… “? Shall I be the one picking up your clothes in Trafalgar Square after you’ve been snatched from the battle zone? Will the Holy Spirit be leaving with you?

Please see my post on “God’s Word” (#11) for further amplification of our position.

To Christ alone be the glory!

And please be encouraged, in His total victory, in history (Ps. 110; Is. 65: 17-25; 1 Cor. 15: 24-26)!

Frank, who loves you because of Christ who first loved us.

Bryn once said:

“Dispensational pessimists depict the present evil age as being in the terminal stages of self-destruction, and hold out to us no other hope than the coming of Christ to rescue his people from their final death throes. According to them, Christ’s coming will enact a rescue operation for the church, accomplished by snatching his beleaguered people away from the war zone. But how can we assert ourselves to be a triumphant church if such is to be the conclusion of our time in this age?

How can we claim his enemies will ‘become his footstool’ if this is the grand finale? (Acts 2:35)

How can we say, ‘greater is he that is in us than he that is in the world’ (1Jo 4:4), if this is the conclusion of the church’s testimony?”

Wow! That leaves you with a real problem! What thing is it that signals the soon return of the Lord? The event He was speaking of was the abomination of desolation. When the abomination of desolation occurs, it will signal the soon return of Christ, namely three and a half years later 1,260 days (Daniel 12:11). Jesus stated that the generation that sees this event will still be around when the second coming of Christ occurs Luke21:34. Now I guess we’re going to get into all kinds of allegorical methods of interpretation. Or we can be honest like the full Preterist who would say “the second coming is past”!

Of course replacement theology always misses out on the fact of the distinction between the church and Israel. Yes we are spiritual Israel but physical Israel we are not, when God gave the ordinances of Jeremiah 31:35-37 as an assurance that the “nation” of Israel would be a nation before Him for eternity (well at least till the sun stops setting), it makes God seem devious to suggest that the church has replaced them. How about you will be a nation before me for ever but I have this sneaky little plan worked out where I can boot you out and replace you with gentiles, I don’t think that works for me.

Do we really need to state how long some proponent has held a particular belief for it to be proved right? Arian’s will win hands down, how about the Roman Catholic church they can’t be wrong, they’ve been around a while, how about the Restoration movement, how about me; 7 years, I must be wrong! The problem with the reformers is that they were Roman Catholics and still held on to a lot of their dogma, although they started the ball rolling they didn’t posses all truth, I doubt that you hold all the tenets of Calvinism.

This contribution is offered in the grace and peace of Christ, and to think about, if you want to be neutral then that’s up to you

Mark

It does seem that some hate dispensationalism even calling it a malignant cancer in the body of Christ, Wow! Actually I know very little about dispensationalism I need to find out what the distinctions are so I will not discredit or reject it yet. I’ve come to my position by simply reading the Bible. But I will say one thing, The late Bryn Jones the respected father figure of your Christian Fellowships was always very kind to all Christians despite their creedal distinctions. Mr Jones was a clean fighter and landed some good clean punches in his debating and sermons I am sure he would have been a little concerned as I am with the words malignant cancer. When words like that are used you may win your argument but you will never win my heart. I am surprised that you don’t believe in the Rapture, am I correct in saying that? Gavin may God bless you and as I look out of my window it’s raining here in Britian hope it’s fine with you.
Elwyn

May God bless you

More to the point, contrarily, if one adheres to covenant theology, then all the events prophesied by Christ on Mt. Olive already have already taken place
as He promised (Matt. 24:34,35) in the generation He addressed — roughly 40 years — culiminating apocalyptically in the Great Tribulation (68-70 A.D.), and the destruction of the Temple in the Jewish holocaust in 70 A.D. That was God’s final divorce decree from apostate Israel; therefore, from Calvary forward, one gospel, one church, one baptism, one people of the new covenant, the Israel of God. (Matt. 24: 1,2; Rom. 2:28,29; Gal. 6:16; Eph. 4, etc.)

May I propose: It is the mistaken futurist reading of apocalyptic prophesies already fulfilled, including Revelation(see Rev. 1:1-3 for the time text) which has rendered much of contemporary Christianity either anxious, preoccupied or relatively impotent, instead of being consistently optimistic regarding the victorious future God has predestined for His Kingdom “on earth as it is in heaven” (Matt. 6:10), before the end of HIStory (1 Cor. 15:25, 26)!

May we thank God for the Westminster divines who nearly 400 years ago had not been similarly led astray, perhaps because premillennial dispensationalism was not invented until nearly 200 years later (Irvingites, Darby, Scofield et al).

See Q. 191 in the longer WCC regarding a biblically-sound, detailed treatment of Kingdom progress, in history, before the bodily return of King Jesus. See, as well, Psalm 110 for that messianic promise, also reflected in the London Baptist Confession of 1689 and other scriptural and Reformation heritage so many contemporary Christians have either trashed or never knew.

Praise God, the Holy Spirit did not come as a loser!

This contribution is offered in the grace and peace of Christ, for either edification or rejection, no neutrality.

I would be more than happy to address the relatively new doctrine of dispensationalism and why I feel it has paralyzed the Church. However, I didn’t think it was appropriate to comprehensively address it in this thread. Are your readers able to engage in a debate without getting bent out of shape? Let’s debate the issue and leave out implied, personal accusations.

I do not appreciate the implication that I do not love the flock I serve, or that somehow I don’t believe what the Lord Jesus teaches. Furthermore, I am not sure what my living in America has to do with this debate.

I am going to believe the best in all who leave comments. I ask that they believe the best in me.

Gavin

But our brother out there in America said about my comment ” this kind of dispensationalist thought has paralysed (The Lord’s) Church for the past couple of hundred year’s. What does he mean?

Mr Lloyd you are a bible teacher and a Pastor that loves your flock you serve. I am just an ordinary working man that believes the Lord Jesus.
Am I missing something here?
Firstly the Lord’s Church has never been paralysed. Christ will build HIS Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it ( matt 16:18) The Word of God not my word’s and what has the Word’s of our Lord Jesus and the Lord’s brother James I have quoted has to do with dipensationalism, what ever dispensationalist’s teach ?

However if you feel that any future comment’s will not be welcome from me please say so and I will respect your wishes and comment no more on your blog site.